განხილვა:ბერძნული დამწერლობა

ლიგატურა

ბეტა–ს მნიშვნელობა „ბ“ უნდა იყოს, და არა „ვ“; გამა–სი — „გ“ და შესაბამისად ძეტასი — „ძ“ (უკანასკნელში დარწმუნებული არ ვარ) :)-- მერო     20:45, 6 დეკემბერი 2007 (UTC)

ბეტა ძველ ბერძნულში იკითხებოდა როგორც "ბ", ხოლო თანამედროვე ბერძნულში როგორც "ვ". ამგვარი ცვლილება ზოგმა სხვა ასომაც განიცადა. ალბათ ძველი და ახალი "მნიშვნელობები" (ეს საერთოდ "მნიშვნელობა"-ა?) ცალ-ცალკე უნდა ეწეროს, როგორც არის ინგლისურში, რუსულში და ა.შ. - Island 08:11, 7 დეკემბერი 2007 (UTC)

ბეტა და გამა ნამდვილად იკითხება როგორც ვ და ღ, ძეტა კი არ ვიცი.

ახლა ერთი კითხვა უნდა დავსვა. სტატიაში მე დროებით ჩავწერე ”ასოთა კომბინაციები”. გერმანულად ამ კომბინაციებს ჰქვიათ Ligatur w:de:Ligatur (Typografie). ქართულად როგორ ითარგმნება? მე მგონია, რომ ”ლიგატურა” (?). Dato deutschland 13:00, 29 დეკემბერი 2007 (UTC)

სორტირების: unicode.org/Public/UCA/latest/allkeys.txt *GREEK*LETTER* შაბლონები 176.31.133.24 08:58, 13 აპრილი 2016 (UTC)

Greek alphabet

Germans and Dutchs don't omit anything except already removed Yot:

• w:de:Griechisches Alphabet
• w:nl:Grieks alfabet

91.94.223.89 13:29, 3 ივლისი 2008 (UTC)

Did they ever have any discussion on the point? Naturally, what has undergone scrutiny is more worth believing than what has not. - Island 16:32, 3 ივლისი 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they discussed it, and current versions are after corrections, not before. 79.162.45.242 11:47, 4 ივლისი 2008 (UTC)

The issue is not the existence of these symbols, but their status as part of the alphabet, and various details. Please note:

• "Stigma" is not a letter separate from "Digamma"/"Waw"; it's a "letter" only insofar as it has been conflated with the latter (otherwise it would just be a ligature out of hundreds.)
• Sho is not really a letter of Greek; it has no known position in the alphabet and no known numeric value.
• San and Heta never had numeric values.
• The names of Stigma, Sampi and Sho are not ancient Greek (Sho is, in fact, an entirely modern invention.)

Sorry for butting in here in English; I've had to follow en:User:CBMIBM around into a dozen of wikis where he's spread his misinformation. Future Perfect at Sunrise 12:00, 4 ივლისი 2008 (UTC)

This is not misinformation. Strict Germans what disallowed Yot approved the rest. Even Takabeg in Turkish wiki treats Stigma as separate letter: w:tr:Yunan alfabesi 79.162.45.242 12:49, 4 ივლისი 2008 (UTC)

Future Perfect at Sunrise, thank you for your remark.

If Germans and Dutchmen did discuss the topic, please provide links to those pages. - Island 15:27, 5 ივლისი 2008 (UTC)

Contradiction in source

This source states: http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n2411.pdf

"No Bactrian abecedary has been found to date. Greek letters have numeric values based on their alphabetical orders. It is conceivable that SHO could be identified with the archaic Greek letter SAN, which has a value of 90; but no Bactrian text with that number has been yet discovered. SAN has not been separately encoded in the UCS, although its descendant, SAMPI, has been. (SAN looks rather different from SAMPI, and it is possible that it should be encoded as well for purposes of representing archaic Greek text, in the same way that ARCHAIC KOPPA and KOPPA have been disunified.) If SHO were identified with SAN, it should be ordered – alphabetically – after PI (80) and before KOPPA (90)."

This source had minor error of assigning 900 to San - corrected in citation - which San because of placing it between Pi and Koppa, must have correct value 90. 91.94.1.61 13:35, 5 ივლისი 2008 (UTC)

OK. I see that SAN had a numeric value and that SHO is not a Greek letter. But I doubt if your "correction" is justified. Do you have any reliable source for the numeric value of SAN being 90? Why should it denote 90 when KOPPA already does? - Island 15:50, 5 ივლისი 2008 (UTC)

San must have value 90 and not 900, to avoid disruption of alphabetic/incrementing order, thus as in case of Digamma and Stigma, only value repetition is approved. Otherwise harmony between alphabetic order and incrementing order is totally disrupted. My correction only removes excessive zero, that is obvious typo performed by pressing key too long, thus is justified. Sho is Greek (letter added by Bactrians to Greek alphabet), as Thorn is Latin (letter added by Icelanders to Latin alphabet), thus it may remain. 91.94.34.125 13:39, 7 ივლისი 2008 (UTC)

If the three letters are in the order PI-SAN-KOPPA, assigning the numeric values 80-90-90 to them is no more "harmony between alphabetic order and incrementing order" than 80-900-90. The case of Digamma and Stigma is of a different sort. Stigma never had any position in the alphabetic order.

I requested a source. I don't think that the fingers of the author slipped twice exactly in the same way :)) Read your source carefully. The reason why he considers the numeric value of San to be 900 is because its putative descendant Sampi denotes 900. But it is still not certain whether San originally had a numeric value or not. In the Phoenician alphabet, the corresponding letters of Pi, San, and Koppa had the numeric values 80, 90, and 100. But Greeks assigned 80 to Pi and 90 to Koppa. Then, it is natural to consider that San fell into disuse before numeric values were given to them. If so, San had no numeric value. I repeat: sources are needed.

This article begins with the sentence "The alphabet of the Greek language is ..." So, this is not the right place for sho. It must be treated differently, at least. - Island 01:59, 8 ივლისი 2008 (UTC)

Look at this:

Greek alphabet
Letter	Name	Sound	Value
Αα	αλφα	[a]	1
Ββ	βῆτα	[b]	2
Γγ	γάμμα	[g]	3
Δδ	δέλτα	[d]	4
Εε	εψιλόν	[e]	5
Ϝϝ	ϝαυ	[w]	6
Ϛϛ	ϛῖγμα	[st]	6
Ζζ	ζῆτα	[zd]	7
Ͱͱ	ͱἦτα	[h]	8
Ηη	ητα	[ɛ]	8
Θθ	θῆτα	[tʰ]	9
Ιι	ιῶτα	[i]	10
Ϳϳ	ϳῶτ	[j]	10
Κκ	κάππα	[k]	20
Λλ	λάμβδα	[l]	30
Μμ	μῦ	[m]	40
Νν	νῦ	[n]	50
Ξξ	ξῖ	[ks]	60
Οο	ομικρόν	[o]	70
Ππ	πῖ	[p]	80
Ϻϻ	ϻάν	[s]	90
Ϙϙ	ϙόππα	[q]	90
Ρρ	ρῶ	[r]	100
Σσ	σῖγμα	[s]	200
Ττ	ταῦ	[t]	300
Υυ	υψιλόν	[y]	400
Φφ	φῖ	[pʰ]	500
Χχ	χῖ	[kʰ]	600
Ψψ	ψῖ	[ps]	700
Ωω	ωμέγα	[ɔ]	800
Ͳͳ	ͳαμπῖ	[ss]	900
Ϸϸ	ϸω	[ʃ]	900

Epsilon-Wau-Stigma-Zeta: 5-6-6-7

Zeta-Heta-Eta-Theta: 7-8-8-9

Theta-Iota-Yot-Kappa: 9-10-10-20

Pi-San-Koppa-Rho: 80-90-90-90-100

Sampi-Sho: 900-900

As you see, only repetitions are allowed, but never uncontrolled leftsided values higher than their rightsided neighbor values.

As required source may serve fact that in the Phoenician alphabet, the corresponding letters of Pi and San had the numeric values 80 and 90.

As you see, correcting of false San's 900 to true San's 90 perfectly fits counter-disruptive requirements. 91.94.4.229 10:39, 9 ივლისი 2008 (UTC)

From where have you brought this table? Please specify the source, otherwise it means nothing. None of those letters that you say repeat the numeric value of another are to be included in the table, let alone Jot, according to the remark of Future Perfect at Sunrise given above. If you don't have any reliable printed source for your theory, let's finish our discussion. - Island 15:46, 9 ივლისი 2008 (UTC)

თარგი {{ბერძნული ანბანი}} სრულიად ზედმეტია, ანბანის სექციაც საკმარისია, თან ცუდად ეფარება -- მერო     21:20, 18 ივლისი 2008 (UTC)

Missing Greek letters

All letters including those questioned by you are sourced here:

• http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/nonattic.html#digamma
• http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/other_ligatures.html#stigma
• http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/unicode_aitch.html#tackheta
• http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/yot.html#ancient
• http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/nonattic.html#san
• http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/nonattic.html#koppa
• http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/other_nonattic.html#sampi
• http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/nonattic.html#sho

Can they and their articles be added under condition of referencing them to above sources? 83.21.171.5 11:16, 13 მარტი 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you open the discussion in another wikipedia, say, in English wikipedia, where you will find more people interested in the topic? Do you know Georgian? If not, you cannot argue what description should be provided in the article. - Island 14:59, 13 მარტი 2009 (UTC)

Georgian names of these letters are:

• /wau/ /digamma/ ვაუ დიგამმა
• /stigma/ სტიგმა
• /heta/ ჰეტა
• /jot/ იოტ
• /san/ სან
• /koppa/ ყოპპა
• /sampi/ /disigma/ სამპი დისიგმა
• /ʃo/ შო

Can you unlock article and template? I will add missing letters to table and reference them all. Note that en-wiki still rejects this topic, while de-wiki already accepted it. 83.30.141.80 12:59, 14 მარტი 2009 (UTC)

I added heta and sho in the tables. Some of the Georgian names you wrote are not correct. See the article. - Island 05:42, 15 მარტი 2009 (UTC)

What about the rest? You can use IPA pronunciations and now correct transliterations from above as start point to transliterate them into Georgian. Unicode provides following set of Greek letters named as such in U0370.pdf:

They are sorted alphabetically. When more than one variant is provided, always leftsided variant is primary.83.22.143.233 16:03, 15 მარტი 2009 (UTC)

Stigma is mentioned in the text as a ligature. If you want to argue about jot, please go to the German wikipedia or elsewhere. Don't reiterate the same discussion (en:Talk:Greek alphabet#Acrophonic names of Greek letters). - Island 01:07, 16 მარტი 2009 (UTC)

ეს სტატია ხომ არ უნდა დაიბლოკოს? --გიორგი , 17:34, 21 მარტი 2009 (UTC)

უაზრო! 37.139.19.15 14:25, 16 აპრილი 2016 (UTC)

არასწორი

ბერძნულად გამოითქმის როგორც „ელინიკა“, დამწერლობა „ჰელენური“ შეგვიძლია დავუძახოთ? 188.226.217.117 08:46, 4 აგვისტო 2016 (UTC)

„ჰელენური“ რომ ეწერა, ამოღებულია. 92.222.124.226 07:42, 5 აგვისტო 2016 (UTC)